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Why Is The Final Cut so reviled?


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#1 chemistry1973

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 10:25 PM

I’ve always loved this moving prog masterpiece:

Just saw a video of Waters performing Two Suns in the Sunset in Santiago. It fell a bit short of the perfect studio version:



Is it too sappy for some ears? Or is it too silly for British tastes? I’ve never understood the criticism. Perhaps it wasn’t ironic enough to be considered a true Floyd album. It is essentially a Waters solo effort.

This album moved me to tears when I was a teen in the early 90s, and I think Waters’ commentary on war on this record holds a great deal of weight these days.

#2 SJS

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 10:28 PM

My favorite Pink Floyd album.

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#3 grep

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 01:29 AM

Old Floyd good. Final Floyd bad.


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#4 sbach66

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 01:36 AM

Love The Final Cut, though I often do think of it as Rog’s first solo album.

#5 fenderjazz

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 02:49 PM

Love The Final Cut, though I often do think of it as Rog’s first solo album.

 

Me too.  I think the problem with it was the music video and overplaying of it on MTV of the title track.  It was just too mellow, IMO.  Mellow without mellowtron Pink Floyd, lol.  The rest of it is quite good.



#6 Three Eyes

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 06:40 PM

I don't think I've ever even heard the album.


Hey there goes Alex. He's loaded with money. Wow he's really set himself up great.


#7 Greg

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 07:15 PM

^^^ Same here.  I would have to listen to it to see if I've heard this album before.  None of the titles sound familiar, but hearing the songs might be...



#8 Slim

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 08:50 PM

I really like it, but for me Floyd was more about Waters than any other member and it is very much Roger's work. It's very astringent and a bit dark. It doesn't have that widescreen cinematic feel that is a hallmark of the Dark Side tunes, or Echoes, for example. I can well understand why it doesn't appeal to everyone.

 

I have the re-release with When The Tigers Broke Free, a song originally intended for The Wall. That's a very intense and personal song.

 

Not Now John was a minor hit in the UK, the words "fuck all that" on the radio version being replaced with the three words of the title. Perhaps that one will be familiar.

 



#9 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 03:42 AM

Not Now, John, Two Suns in the Sunset, and the title track are all phenomenal.  Some of the other tracks are hit-or-miss.

I'm surprised you like it, Slim, given how much Roger uses it as a platform to rip into your girl Maggie.

I also really dig "Your Possible Pasts."


labente deinde paulatim disciplina velut desidentes primo mores sequatur animo, deinde ut magis magisque lapsi sint, tum ire coeperint praecipites, donec ad haec tempora quibus nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus perventum est.

 

First our declining morals slid, bit by bit, and then our very national spirit.  Then the collapse became greater and greater, and our principles began to go, until at last, it has come to this age, in which we can bear neither our crimes nor the cure for them.

 
 

#10 Moving Target

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 06:45 AM

It came out at a time when Britain had turned against prog.

It feels like it comes from the ego not the heart.

I like When the Tigers Broke Free though.

#11 grep

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 07:55 AM



I like When the Tigers Broke Free though.

 

Wasn't that one intended to be on The Wall?  I haven't seen the movie in 20 years but vaguely remember Tigers as part of it.

Southampton Dock was another leftover from The Wall if I remember correctly.

 


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#12 SJS

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:19 PM

Not Now, John, Two Suns in the Sunset, and the title track are all phenomenal. 

 

Actually I'm not sure how I feel about Not Now, John and Two Suns in the Sunset.  They are both good tracks, but they feel tacked on after the title track, which was such a natural ending to the album's arc.  Maybe I'm missing his point, but in the title track he seemed to be saying "I'm not committing suicide, but I'm pretty messed up by this life I've led."  Then the last two tracks are "And now for something completely different" and "By the way, the world just blew up."


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#13 chemistry1973

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:47 PM

The title track references the last world war (no mystery there!) The schoolteacher (same guy from Another Brick) can’t explain to anyone he loves about the horrors he faced and can’t rejoin society. He’s a misanthrope, creating new ones at the school he teaches at. It’s also,as with the wall, self referential - the continued alienation Waters feels with the world connects with the school teacher - the ironic “lucky one” who didn’t die like his father did.

Not Now refers to the loss of the British shipbuilding industry to the Japanese - which ironically thrived while the Allies were actually fighting them. At the same time Britain was fighting Argentina for what seemed to be strictly nationalistic reasons. “John” being - I think - the British laborer being left in the dust by the dumb entertainment obsessed society replacing him.

Two Suns is a warning of what’s to come.

It all seems to fit to me, though it’s all bleak shit. But I happen to subscribe to the premise. That war is never about building a future - that’s a scam. The post war dream was only an afterthought. “Take heed of the dream...”

#14 chemistry1973

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 03:00 PM

It came out at a time when Britain had turned against prog.

It feels like it comes from the ego not the heart.

I like When the Tigers Broke Free though.

This take is interesting, and it’s a common one from Brits.

Perhaps I’m so removed from the effects of WW2 that it helps to appraise the Final Cut more highly. You were the ones who were bombed , had to grow out of the rubble. Perhaps this is all too obvious - too twee for British ears?

#15 Three Eyes

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 09:28 PM

After listening to the three tracks posted to this thread I must say that these songs don't really resonate with me. Sounds like suboptimal Floyd, imo. Just read on Wiki that Gilmour only sings on one song. That seems just wrong. Waters has a great character voice that's perfect for some aspects of Floyd's music but he can't carry an entire Pink Floyd album.


Hey there goes Alex. He's loaded with money. Wow he's really set himself up great.


#16 Moving Target

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 10:03 PM

This take is interesting, and it’s a common one from Brits.

Perhaps I’m so removed from the effects of WW2 that it helps to appraise the Final Cut more highly. You were the ones who were bombed , had to grow out of the rubble. Perhaps this all too obvious - too twee for British ears?


Roger Waters has fifteen years on me. I was too young to have grown out of the rubble, though I can remember playing on some of the last of the bomb sites. There was one at the end of an old classmate’s garden.

I certainly don’t recall the roadside piles of wrecked masonry which were not all collected until the 1950s.

#17 Slim

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 10:52 PM

The title track references the last world war (no mystery there!) The schoolteacher (same guy from Another Brick) can’t explain to anyone he loves about the horrors he faced and can’t rejoin society. He’s a misanthrope, creating new ones at the school he teaches at. It’s also,as with the wall, self referential - the continued alienation Waters feels with the world connects with the school teacher - the ironic “lucky one” who didn’t die like his father did.

Not Now refers to the loss of the British shipbuilding industry to the Japanese - which ironically thrived while the Allies were actually fighting them. At the same time Britain was fighting Argentina for what seemed to be strictly nationalistic reasons. “John” being - I think - the British laborer being left in the dust by the dumb entertainment obsessed society replacing him.

 

I think he might have been having a pop at the nationalism and jingoism surrounding the Falklands War but only an actual, literal cretin could appraise the reasons for fighting a war that started when our own armed forces were attacked on British territory as nationalistic.

 

You're right in that I don't like the brain-dead anti-Thatcherism that pollutes the record, but it was pervasive in all of British entertainment culture at the time and I sort of became immune to it.

 

I've always taken Not Now John to refer to the export of millions of British industry jobs abroad in general, not just shipbuilding. And the cause of that was the world-owes-me-a-living, us and them trade union militancy and protectionism that Mrs Thatcher dedicated her time in office to defeating.



#18 chemistry1973

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 01:21 AM

There was a certain fervor surrounding the Falklands - I remember it vaguely. There was definitely and us vs. them vibe here in the states.

Seems a diplomatic deal could’ve been struck for sure - the loss of life was disproportionate to the importance of those islands. It was a bit ridiculous in retrospect - especially how close the UK was to actually losing the conflict to a much more poorly equipped foe.

But again-it’s hard to really understand the politics of it from a US point of view.

#19 Slim

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 04:33 PM

There was a certain fervor surrounding the Falklands - I remember it vaguely. There was definitely and us vs. them vibe here in the states.

Seems a diplomatic deal could’ve been struck for sure - the loss of life was disproportionate to the importance of those islands. It was a bit ridiculous in retrospect - especially how close the UK was to actually losing the conflict to a much more poorly equipped foe.

But again-it’s hard to really understand the politics of it from a US point of view.

 

 

Possibly you aren't familiar with the politics of that conflict. But I suppose the loss of life was indeed a bit disproportionate. Only a few hundred Argentine armed forces were killed; perhaps four or five thousand would have been more appropriate to the seriousness of the situation.

 

A diplomatic initiative to resolve the disputed status had been going on since the '60s. If a fascist junta had invaded some US territory, overcome American Marines defending it in a violent conflict then declared it and the people already living there under US protection as its own, you'd have done some sort of deal, would you?

 

The Argies were not more poorly equipped. They had flown in loads of stuff to the islands by the time we got there. The supply line to the British forces stretched thousands of miles back to Ascension Island and it was a stunning achievement to liberate the islands and free its people.

 

More here if interested:

 

https://www.amazon.c...&qid=1542558488



#20 Three Eyes

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 05:29 PM

Haha. You gotta love CP.  "And to prove my point, here's my book on the subject." 


Hey there goes Alex. He's loaded with money. Wow he's really set himself up great.





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