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#41 GhostWriter

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 03:21 PM

FYI, I paraphrased, after reading about Rafael Cruz on Tuesday.

 

Well....hardly a paraphrase when it amounts to every word. But, whatever.

 

RD: "Ted Cruz is a member of a strict fundamentalist branch of the Southern Baptist Church with deep roots in Dominionist theology"
 
Web: "Ted Cruz is a member of a strict fundamentalist branch of the Southern Baptist Church with deep roots in Dominionist theology"  https://www.quora.co...z-a-dominionist
 
RD: "a theocratic ideology which seeks to implement a nation governed by conservative Christians ruling over society based on an understanding of biblical law"
 
Web: "a theocratic ideology which seeks to implement a nation governed by conservative Christians ruling over society based on an understanding of biblical law" https://en.wikipedia...minion_Theology
 
RD: "His father is a noted Dominionist"
 
Web: "His father is a noted Dominionist" https://www.quora.co...z-a-dominionist

 

 

 

 So, I read more and found gems like this:

 

Well, Marx was absolutely right that for communism to work the concept of God had to be eliminated; that was a common theme amongst all those 20th century despots. And even someone like you can't deny that Darwinism went a long way in achieving that goal. I mean come on, many on this board are living "proof of concept". So while you might think it "wacky", it certainly isn't false. (Not that I want to defend someone who just might be off his rocker; I'm just pointing out your criticism isn't valid).

 

And let's not forget Jeremiah Wright's Liberation Theology who Obama sat under; a nutter of another colour. While I do think Obama would tend towards some of his views, it didn't scare me in the least because I understood his ability to implement some of Wright's crazy was completely implausible. The same goes for Cruz.

 

 

SO not equality, or non discriminatory tax issues and parenting and the ability to choose who you would have as you family or make POA, but socialism.

 

Would you not agree that Marxism and Communism in the 20th century were great evils? While I don't think socialism would amass the same body count, it still is conceptually their little brother. And little brothers usually grow up. Why anyone would even want to start down that path makes absolutely no sense when it's history of failure is there for anyone to see.

 

 

It is your right, of course, to laugh about the use of Dominionism, though it is well defined by many sources that are not using it to "scare" anyone.  

 

Well I have studied and read about it in the past. It's usually a footnote in a survey of American Christianity. I would guess there's more snake-handlers than there are Reconstructionists. So yeah, it barely blips on the radar.

 

 

He is undoubtedly a bright guy, I agree. Well educated, smart and I have noticed he does his best to take the high road when Trump and others hit below the belt. I doubt very much a Cruz Presidency would involve a maniacal plan of overthrow.

 

Agreed.

 

 

Instead a Cruz Presidency would pepper any open Supreme Court position with guys like Scalia and Thomas, and he is openly anti LBGT.

 

I think 5 Thomas' and 4 Scalia's would be fantastic. (I went with 5 Thomas' for the Affirmative Action feels). But I get it, we don't agree on this; nor a 9 Ginsburg's court craptastrophy.

 

 

He has accepted much money and support from some truly scary people who support very radical ideals, and those folks would likely wield influence and power.

 

Name me a candidate outside of Trump who hasn't? Soros makes the Koch brothers look like small-time street punks. The system in general is a wreck on both sides and up for sale to those with money. 

 

 

I suppose someone like you with your limited worldview and evangelical beliefs finds him normal, trust me when I say the rest of us do not.

 

I love a good jab, I gotta admit. But for it to work you have to actually hit your target. I haven't made a "christian" argument here in years. I've argued on your terms, on your playing field. You keep coming back to that, however, because your views seldom have any teeth. But I get it though; a subtle ad hom is hard to resist some times.

 

"Obama is a Muslim." Response: It's no big deal. You people on the right are crazy.

"Cruz is a Christian." Response: He will be the worst thing for America ever because his dad is crazy!

 

Let no one ever accuse progressives of being consistent. The biggest bigots really do reside on the left.


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#42 fenderjazz

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 06:51 PM

Dominionist thought is really not that scary, certainly not for a majority of Americans.  Even mainstream Catholics believe that we will lead the world out of darkness.  These are the beliefs of religious people, that their understanding of the relationship between God and man is correct and anyone who differs with that is wrong.  Sorry, it's just how religion works.  We will live in a theocracy in the Kingdom of God.  If you don't believe that, you're not part of a mainstream or other religion.  It doesn't mean we have to establish that now, but someday it will be established.

 

Get over it, move on.


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#43 RushDoggie

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 12:46 AM

Well....hardly a paraphrase when it amounts to every word. But, whatever.

 

RD: "Ted Cruz is a member of a strict fundamentalist branch of the Southern Baptist Church with deep roots in Dominionist theology"
 
Web: "Ted Cruz is a member of a strict fundamentalist branch of the Southern Baptist Church with deep roots in Dominionist theology"  https://www.quora.co...z-a-dominionist
 
RD: "a theocratic ideology which seeks to implement a nation governed by conservative Christians ruling over society based on an understanding of biblical law"
 
Web: "a theocratic ideology which seeks to implement a nation governed by conservative Christians ruling over society based on an understanding of biblical law" https://en.wikipedia...minion_Theology
 
RD: "His father is a noted Dominionist"
 
Web: "His father is a noted Dominionist" https://www.quora.co...z-a-dominionist

 

You you really must have way to much time on your hands. Thank you for your hard work showing that. I apparently remembered some stuff verbatim. I'm awesome like that. You must really have to work hard if you want to discredit an argument by arguing that it was c/p, despite the fact that it is irrelevant.

 

I hope that when you went searching for info you saw the huge quantities of information about how the Religious Right Fundamentalism and Dominionism are a deep part of the history of fundamental Southern Baptisms.

Well, Marx was absolutely right that for communism to work the concept of God had to be eliminated; that was a common theme amongst all those 20th century despots. And even someone like you can't deny that Darwinism went a long way in achieving that goal. I mean come on, many on this board are living "proof of concept". So while you might think it "wacky", it certainly isn't false. (Not that I want to defend someone who just might be off his rocker; I'm just pointing out your criticism isn't valid).

 

And let's not forget Jeremiah Wright's Liberation Theology who Obama sat under; a nutter of another colour. While I do think Obama would tend towards some of his views, it didn't scare me in the least because I understood his ability to implement some of Wright's crazy was completely implausible. The same goes for Cruz.

 

Darwinism (aka the theory of evolution) went a long way to achieving which goal?

 

Difference between Obama and Cruz is that Obama has at least publicly disagreed with Wright but Cruz has not disagreed with his father. FWIW I find people like Wright just as scary as R. Cruz. Crazy religious whackjobs both.

 

Would you not agree that Marxism and Communism in the 20th century were great evils? While I don't think socialism would amass the same body count, it still is conceptually their little brother. And little brothers usually grow up. Why anyone would even want to start down that path makes absolutely no sense when it's history of failure is there for anyone to see.

 

That assumes that embracing secularism is embracing Marxism and Communism (should that be big M and C or little M and C?). Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you a capitalist does it? Why would secularism make you a communist?

 

I would agree Marxism as it was practiced in the Soviet Union and Cuba were both examples of a bad implementation, but like any idea Marxism is not inherently evil. I don't agree taking God out of government equals socialism of marxism in any way (there I did little m/c this time, so I will only be wrong once).

 

Well I have studied and read about it in the past. It's usually a footnote in a survey of American Christianity. I would guess there's more snake-handlers than there are Reconstructionists. So yeah, it barely blips on the radar.

 

Again, footnote but embraced wholeheartedly by R. Cruz who speaks as a mouth peice for T. Cruz. So, its now quite mainstream.

 

think 5 Thomas' and 4 Scalia's would be fantastic. (I went with 5 Thomas' for the Affirmative Action feels). But I get it, we don't agree on this; nor a 9 Ginsburg's court craptastrophy.

 

:lol:

 

Re: Soros. I will have to go read more on that. I don't know enough about him or his hijinks to argue coherently.

 

And BTW, that last bit wasn't a jab. You are a well known patriarchal world appreciating fundie guy around here. Just like as a liberal-ish, athiest feminist like myself sees stuff like LBTG rights as not frightening or controversial, I would expect someone like you to have no problem with a guy like Cruz being (arguably) the most powerful man in the free world. He thinks he was personally called to do this by the Man In The Clouds, who to me is a made up fantasy that no one has any proof exists in any way.


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#44 RushDoggie

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 12:52 AM

Dominionist thought is really not that scary, certainly not for a majority of Americans.  Even mainstream Catholics believe that we will lead the world out of darkness.  These are the beliefs of religious people, that their understanding of the relationship between God and man is correct and anyone who differs with that is wrong.  Sorry, it's just how religion works.  We will live in a theocracy in the Kingdom of God.

 

So the US is a theocracy? So laws of religion should trump laws of government?

 If you don't believe that, you're not part of a mainstream or other religion.

No, I don't think most mainstream Christians think that way (at least not those I talk to).

 

But if that's true, than Dominionism is not so much a fringe element like GW thinks, eh?

 

Get over it, move on.

 

No, thank you. I believe in the separation of government and religion. I think most Americans do at least to some extent.

 

Pull of a couple of old R. Cruz sermons and listen. Hes a real wingnut.


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#45 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:44 AM

Good god, a Supreme Court made entirely of Scalia and Thomas would be a nightmare.
If it's going to be a conservative justice, could we make it Roberts, who justifies his jurisprudence with logic and writes clever opinions, at least.


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labente deinde paulatim disciplina velut desidentes primo mores sequatur animo, deinde ut magis magisque lapsi sint, tum ire coeperint praecipites, donec ad haec tempora quibus nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus perventum est.

 

First our declining morals slid, bit by bit, and then our very national spirit.  Then the collapse became greater and greater, and our principles began to go, until at last, it has come to this age, in which we can bear neither our crimes nor the cure for them.

 
 

#46 fenderjazz

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:18 AM

So the US is a theocracy? So laws of religion should trump laws of government?
No, I don't think most mainstream Christians think that way (at least not those I talk to).

But if that's true, than Dominionism is not so much a fringe element like GW thinks, eh?


No, thank you. I believe in the separation of government and religion. I think most Americans do at least to some extent.

Pull of a couple of old R. Cruz sermons and listen. Hes a real wingnut.


A person can believe those things as most Christians do and still follow the constitution. Yes just about every Christian believes in the coming Kingdom of God. It's the basis of all Judeo-Christian religions.

#47 Greg

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:07 AM

Get over it, move on.

 

No. I won't 'get over it' because it's just that kind of attitude that emboldens non-religious people like me to push back against theocracies.  And that's what we have with Cruz, Rubio and, well, all the other theocrats on the R side, save for Trump who has tried to pander to the religious whackjob right with hilarious results.  As if anyone needed any more to laugh at about Trump, I submit this video for your amusement.  He's doing this in front a bunch of students who were required to attend this thing.  Completely ridiculous...but here it is, but he's right about one thing.  We can't have another four years of Barack Obama.  That's about the only thing he gets right in this clip.

 

 

But Joe, it's the 'get over it' attitude one that I find contemptuous about religions and some religious people.  Surely you don't mean it like that because I've generally found you to be somewhat accommodating and understanding of those who don't share your beliefs.  As opposed to GW who, well, doesn't and has a certain myopia that is both alarming and amusing...but that's not really the point.  The point is that churches and government need to be kept separate.  And as I recall, this separation was part of the founding to keep the church apart from the corrupting influence of government.  The founders didn't have a high opinion of either church or government, but at least they had the smarts to want to keep them separate...it's all the theocrats in more recent decades that have tried to combine the two.  

 

And yea, check our Cruz Sr.'s sermons.  He's the conductor on the train to Crazy Town.  I can't imagine the mainstream Xtian believes in that nonsense.  He's completely bananas...



#48 MrSkeptic

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:16 AM

Oh no. He's a man of God. God directs him and his plans. What does that say about God?


They said I could be anything, so I became a disappointment.

 

 


#49 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 05:07 AM

God loves people who creep their own daughters out.


labente deinde paulatim disciplina velut desidentes primo mores sequatur animo, deinde ut magis magisque lapsi sint, tum ire coeperint praecipites, donec ad haec tempora quibus nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus perventum est.

 

First our declining morals slid, bit by bit, and then our very national spirit.  Then the collapse became greater and greater, and our principles began to go, until at last, it has come to this age, in which we can bear neither our crimes nor the cure for them.

 
 

#50 RushDoggie

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:02 AM

God loves people who creep their own daughters out.

 

To be fair, he's probably not the only Dad whose preteen daughter shys away from PDA but to me that little look he gave to see if he was still on camera shows he is all about an image and it was all for the camera. Gotta love politicians.


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#51 fenderjazz

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:32 PM

No. I won't 'get over it' because it's just that kind of attitude that emboldens non-religious people like me to push back against theocracies.  And that's what we have with Cruz, Rubio and, well, all the other theocrats on the R side, save for Trump who has tried to pander to the religious whackjob right with hilarious results.  As if anyone needed any more to laugh at about Trump, I submit this video for your amusement.  He's doing this in front a bunch of students who were required to attend this thing.  Completely ridiculous...but here it is, but he's right about one thing.  We can't have another four years of Barack Obama.  That's about the only thing he gets right in this clip.

 

But Joe, it's the 'get over it' attitude one that I find contemptuous about religions and some religious people.  Surely you don't mean it like that because I've generally found you to be somewhat accommodating and understanding of those who don't share your beliefs.  As opposed to GW who, well, doesn't and has a certain myopia that is both alarming and amusing...but that's not really the point.  The point is that churches and government need to be kept separate.  And as I recall, this separation was part of the founding to keep the church apart from the corrupting influence of government.  The founders didn't have a high opinion of either church or government, but at least they had the smarts to want to keep them separate...it's all the theocrats in more recent decades that have tried to combine the two.  

 

And yea, check our Cruz Sr.'s sermons.  He's the conductor on the train to Crazy Town.  I can't imagine the mainstream Xtian believes in that nonsense.  He's completely bananas...

 

You have to look at actions rather than words.  You have to be for the Constitution.  It binds us together and limits government, not people.  I laugh when I look at progressive atheists stomping on the Constitution.  It's the reason you exist.  It's the reason religious people exist and it's how we all exist in harmony.  Government is not allowed to establish a religion.  For faithful people, someday the governments of the world will be abolished and we will live in God's kingdom on earth.  Only then will the Constitution not matter.  For now, it does.  So live it and don't worry about people like this.  That's what I mean when I say get over it.  You're not going to see a Constitutional amendment passed in your lifetime or your children's lifetime that establishes a state religion.



#52 Hemisfears

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 04:11 PM

You have to be for the Constitution.

 

 

Progressives aren't.


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#53 RushDoggie

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 04:41 PM

 I laugh when I look at progressive atheists stomping on the Constitution.

 

Example?


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#54 GhostWriter

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 05:03 PM

You you really must have way to much time on your hands. Thank you for your hard work showing that. I apparently remembered some stuff verbatim. I'm awesome like that. You must really have to work hard if you want to discredit an argument by arguing that it was c/p, despite the fact that it is irrelevant

 

It took about 2 minutes actually. I only posted it when you questioned me on the c/p comment. It was just a comment not entirely relevant to the point. I've seen it done by another prominent poster here but I've never bothered to say anything either.

 

It was the first two links that popped up when googling "Ted Cruz Dominionism". It didn't sound like you. It sounded like someone searching for something to dislike about Cruz and they stumbled on the "spooky" word "dominionism" but didn't really understand it or how tiny a demographic it is that adheres to it. You'd have a better argument fearing what he might do with PP than with any of his father's malarkey. And as FJ has said, The Constitution wouldn't allow it to happen.

 

 

Darwinism (aka the theory of evolution) went a long way to achieving which goal?

 

To helping people jettison their belief in God. It gave people an alternative tale to believe. Marx needed that. 

 

 

That assumes that embracing secularism is embracing Marxism and Communism (should that be big M and C or little M and C?). Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you a capitalist does it? Why would secularism make you a communist?

 

You mean socialism, correct? And I didn't imply that. I said one is merely the first few steps along the same path. And if you continue down that path, which is the very nature of progressiveism, you will inevitably end up there.

 

 

I would agree Marxism as it was practiced in the Soviet Union and Cuba were both examples of a bad implementation, but like any idea Marxism is not inherently evil. I don't agree taking God out of government equals socialism of marxism in any way (there I did little m/c this time, so I will only be wrong once).

 

That wasn't my argument. Marx knew that to implement his ideas, he needed the State to replace God in the minds of the people; every man everywhere believes in something. Christianity's ideal is the freedom of individuals which was in complete opposition to Marx. Removing God does not equal socialism, but it was a necessary condition for communism to flourish: see Russia, China, Cambodia, and North Korea. That is why as the US becomes more secular it also moves further left: the State has become "God" and that is why the West is slowly disintegrating. The foundation that once made it great is being slowly chipped away and replaced. That is the lifecycle of nations and that original freedom is what conservatives are trying to conserve. But death is inevitable despite our plea. We want to make sure the decline just takes a little longer.

 

And for the record, feminism is a form of Marxism and relies on the same underlying philosophy: trying to make equal things that are not.

 

 

Re: Soros. I will have to go read more on that. I don't know enough about him or his hijinks to argue coherently.

 

I think there are a lot of crazy things said and written about the Koch brothers and Soros and the other "Dr. Evil's" out there. I'm a currency trader and I was newly in the market in 1992 for Black Wednesday in the UK when Soros took on the Bank of England and crushed the Pound. For a lefty he sure didn't mind using raw capitalism to line his own pockets with billions. He single-handedly caused much hardship for people in the UK.

 

 

And BTW, that last bit wasn't a jab. You are a well known patriarchal world appreciating fundie guy around here. Just like as a liberal-ish, athiest feminist like myself sees stuff like LBTG rights as not frightening or controversial, I would expect someone like you to have no problem with a guy like Cruz being (arguably) the most powerful man in the free world. He thinks he was personally called to do this by the Man In The Clouds, who to me is a made up fantasy that no one has any proof exists in any way.

 

Can't argue with much of that, although I think the term "realist" would be an easier descriptor for me. ;)


It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.

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#55 GhostWriter

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 06:25 PM

No. I won't 'get over it' because it's just that kind of attitude that emboldens non-religious people like me to push back against theocracies.  And that's what we have with Cruz, Rubio and, well, all the other theocrats on the R side,

 

Do you even know what theocracy means? These shrill little outbursts are hilarious. Honestly, talk about Crazy Town. In order for the US to become a theocracy it would have to do away with its Constitution. You've made it 240 years so far so the chances that Cruz, a Constitutionalist, is going to do away with it, is about as likely as Hillary Clinton starting to tell the truth. It's just plain bananas and will not happen.

 

 


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- Francis Bacon

 


#56 fenderjazz

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 06:43 PM

Example?

 

Like complaining that the Constitution is "outdated" for things such as gun control, etc.  Rights can't be taken away.  Your right to religion or non-religion can't be taken away by a majority of congress and a president.  The water mark is high to make a Constitutional amendment.  It can't be made without the full will of the people - 2/3 of Congress plus 3/4 of State Legislatures or Conventions.



#57 MrSkeptic

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:23 PM

Interesting that, depending on which side of the political fence you generally fall on, the concern that the U.S.A. will become a Theocracy or that BHO and his people are going to take away the guns. AKA, Same Shit, Different Day™.

 

Funny, that.


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#58 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 08:16 PM

Interesting that, depending on which side of the political fence you generally fall on, the concern that the U.S.A. will become a Theocracy or that BHO and his people are going to take away the guns. AKA, Same Shit, Different Day™.

 

Funny, that.

The difference is, 27 state legislatures are pushing for an Article V convention to amend the constitution. All of them are controlled by Republicans, and many of those who have pushed for such a convention have said that, among the things they want to do if they were to get their Constitutional convention include:

 

  • Pass a balanced-budget amendment
  • Alter the First Amendment to allow for an official state-established religion
  • Repeal the 14th Amendment to restore state sovereignty

Now, with the exception of the first one, not all 27 state legislatures are unanimous on those, but the fact that there is a real movement attempting to call for a new constitutional convention, and they're only 7 state legislatures away from doing so is terrifying. Because those conventions have the capacity to be runaway trains once they convene, and even the original intent of the gathering can be lost once negotiations start.


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labente deinde paulatim disciplina velut desidentes primo mores sequatur animo, deinde ut magis magisque lapsi sint, tum ire coeperint praecipites, donec ad haec tempora quibus nec vitia nostra nec remedia pati possumus perventum est.

 

First our declining morals slid, bit by bit, and then our very national spirit.  Then the collapse became greater and greater, and our principles began to go, until at last, it has come to this age, in which we can bear neither our crimes nor the cure for them.

 
 

#59 fenderjazz

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 08:54 PM

The difference is, 27 state legislatures are pushing for an Article V convention to amend the constitution. All of them are controlled by Republicans, and many of those who have pushed for such a convention have said that, among the things they want to do if they were to get their Constitutional convention include:

 

  • Pass a balanced-budget amendment
  • Alter the First Amendment to allow for an official state-established religion
  • Repeal the 14th Amendment to restore state sovereignty

Now, with the exception of the first one, not all 27 state legislatures are unanimous on those, but the fact that there is a real movement attempting to call for a new constitutional convention, and they're only 7 state legislatures away from doing so is terrifying. Because those conventions have the capacity to be runaway trains once they convene, and even the original intent of the gathering can be lost once negotiations start.

 

Mark Levin is the leader of such movement and I guarantee you the second bullet is not on the agenda.



#60 Greg

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:56 AM

Do you even know what theocracy means? These shrill little outbursts are hilarious. Honestly, talk about Crazy Town. In order for the US to become a theocracy it would have to do away with its Constitution. You've made it 240 years so far so the chances that Cruz, a Constitutionalist, is going to do away with it, is about as likely as Hillary Clinton starting to tell the truth. It's just plain bananas and will not happen.

 

Awwww, it's so cute when you try to insult me.   :wub:

 

But what is it.  FJ says Dominionism endemic and an inherent part of the Christian faith. Yet you, on the other hand, say that it's just a splinter group of a special kind of whacko.  

 

Can't be both, so who's wrong?  

 

But keep your insults coming...it makes me feel special.


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