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Transgenderism


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Poll: Transgenderism (14 member(s) have cast votes)

Is it really possible to transition from one gender to another?

  1. Yes (8 votes [57.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.14%

  2. No (6 votes [42.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.86%

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#61 chemistry1973

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 05:41 PM

That's clearly quite wrong. Gender has a meaning that even in the most hysterically PC definition can only be defined by sex. Otherwise what does it even mean at all?

Many people who imagine that their gender conflicts with their sex realise this only too well, otherwise they wouldn't undergo a surgeon's knife to emulate a different sex (not gender).


Yup

#62 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 06:20 PM

That's clearly quite wrong. Gender has a meaning that even in the most hysterically PC definition can only be defined by sex. Otherwise what does it even mean at all?

"Gender" is the social constructs that we typically associate with sex. And those can change, society to society.

Men in Greece wore white pleated skirts up until this last century (and even into the World Wars in formal military dress), but that particular aspect of their culture is gendered female to modern Western nations. The gendered performance of "male" is thus drastically different in both cultures, separated by time and distance.

Essentially, gender is the collection of expectations, attitudes, aptitudes, tastes, preferences, and affectations expected by society, it is the performance arising from our culture's views of gender identity. Sex is physical. 

To put it another way, gender is behavior, sex is biology.

Most mainstream psychologists make a pretty clear distinction there, and I'm kind of surprised you haven't run across this difference, to be honest.

Many people who imagine that their gender conflicts with their sex realise this only too well, otherwise they wouldn't undergo a surgeon's knife to emulate a different sex (not gender).

...but not all do. Some are okay being a woman with a penis. Humanity, even that segment of humanity existing in a niche you and I may not have first-hand experience of, exhibits a remarkable amount of diversity.

 

No to derail things but where does the line get drawn? Is there a line? I mean, what if a 52 year old man identifies and lives as a 6 year old girl? Transgender AND Transage? And what about the Otherkin; those that identify as animals? Do we just accept every manner of self-identity as if it's ok? As if there is not something mentally wrong with people?

Ilness is defined by its consequences. A man who identifies as a six-year-old girl will likely find his life and future opportunities severely curtailed. So in that case, yes, at least in the modern day, that's unhealthy because of the consequences such a perspective can have. But "abnormal psychology" is not inherently bad as a result of its abnormality. It is a problem when it carries with it consequences that the person with the abnormal psychology would like to avoid. 
The otherkin are adorable, and I don't begrudge them their fantasies. It's up to them whether or not they want to seek "help" for that, based on how much those beliefs about themselves are internalized and blocking their progress.

But I think with those two examples, the transage and transspecies business, there's an important difference with transgenderism. Our age changes throughout our life. It's kind of unavoidable. And our age is pretty easily objectively defined. It may start in a different place based on different definitions (you start at conception, I'm willing to bet; I start at evacuation from the womb), but unless you're orbiting near a black hole, your age more-or-less progresses in a way defined by your position in space-time. Liekwise, otherkin, when they actually do believe what they say (I've met some who were less-than-sincere personally), are believing something that is likely the result of suggestion or motivated reasoning, rather than something structurally in the brain.

But feeling like or believing you are a different sex, wanting to present as a different gender, has an explanatory mechanism. RD mentioned it earlier when she talked about situations where people develop a particular set of genitals as a result of in-utero contamination when they would otherwise have developed in some other way. The brain is a pretty delicate and anything that skews hormone levels, especially in early developmental stages, can have pretty weird consequences, consequences that we don't wholly understand.

We are too neutered as a society now to call out anyone on their nonsense and that leaves the marginalized and outcast to come up with new "identities" to show others they really are that special little snowflake, unlike all the rest.

Or they genuinely do feel out-of-place in their bodies, with the gender performances they have. Surely you don't think Olympic medalist reality TV stars need some external element to help them feel more special, for instance?


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#63 Slim

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:20 AM

No to derail things but where does the line get drawn? Is there a line? I mean, what if a 52 year old man identifies and lives as a 6 year old girl?

 

52 years old for you and me perhaps, but for Doggie and Rebel he's a 6 year old, of course. That's the problem with encouraging a help-yourself, anything goes approach to definitions and meanings; they become worthless.



#64 RushDoggie

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 02:10 AM

52 years old for you and me perhaps, but for Doggie and Rebel he's a 6 year old, of course. That's the problem with encouraging a help-yourself, anything goes approach to definitions and meanings; they become worthless.

 

Nope.

 

I think Rebel did a pretty good job explaining why its not quite the same thing.


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#65 SJS

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 03:08 AM

Curious as to what would define treating someone with false hope?


Getting the surgery is not the panacea it is sometimes held to be

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#66 MrSkeptic

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 03:40 AM

. Some are okay being a woman with a penis.

 

Women don't have a penis regardless of how they think of themselves just as men can't get pregnant.


They said I could be anything, so I became a disappointment.

 

 


#67 RushDoggie

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 04:58 AM

Getting the surgery is not the panacea it is sometimes held to be

 

 

So, calling someone by the gender the wish to be called is an equivalent (as per the OP)?

 

Seems like only a doctor or counselor, or someone close enough to be asked an opinion would be able to do that. Referring to them by the pronoun they prefer would not.


“Music is probably the only real magic I have encountered in my life. It's pure and it's real. It moves, it heals.” - Tom Petty

 

 


#68 Always the Winner

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:19 AM

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Hey...where's Perry?


#69 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 11:37 PM

Women don't have a penis

They do, though. ALL women have a penis. It shares the same base cells as our penis, anyway, but we call it a clitoris in them. Likewise, their ovaries are literally just repositioned and altered testes. The structures are actually remarkably similar. Some women who suffer from Turner Syndrome actually manifest something that is both penis and clitoris, essentially having not differentiated itself.

regardless of how they think of themselves just as men can't get pregnant.

Unless a transman gets pregnant, that is. But then, you wouldn't call him a man, I'd wager, against his wishes.



#70 chemistry1973

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 12:29 AM

They do, though. ALL women have a penis. It shares the same base cells as our penis, anyway, but we call it a clitoris in them. Likewise, their ovaries are literally just repositioned and altered testes. The structures are actually remarkably similar. Some women who suffer from Turner Syndrome actually manifest something that is both penis and clitoris, essentially having not differentiated itself.
Unless a transman gets pregnant, that is. But then, you wouldn't call him a man, I'd wager, against his wishes.


He'd probably call him a transman, just as you did.

#71 SJS

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 12:52 AM

So, calling someone by the gender the wish to be called is an equivalent (as per the OP)?

Seems like only a doctor or counselor, or someone close enough to be asked an opinion would be able to do that. Referring to them by the pronoun they prefer would not.

I wasn't really referring to pronouns. I was referring to the superficial understanding most people have regarding gender dysphoria.

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#72 grep

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 07:20 AM

Im confused.

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May The Force Be With Us...

 


#73 GhostWriter

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 07:20 PM

Here's a good article published a couple days ago that lends a lot of credibility to the position that transgenderism is a mental disorder (written by one who underwent the surgery and then had it corrected). The whole thing is a good read. Here's the heart of the article:

 


Studies show that the majority of transgender people have other co-occurring, or comorbid, psychological disorders.
 
A 2014 study found 62.7% of patients diagnosed with gender dysphoria had at least one co-occurring disorder, and 33% were found to have major depressive disorders, which are linked to suicide ideation. Another 2014 study of four European countries found that almost 70% of participants showed one or more Axis I disorders, mainly affective (mood) disorders and anxiety.
 
In 2007, the Department of Psychiatry at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, committed to a clinical review of the comorbid disorders of the last 10 patients interviewed at their Gender Identity Clinic. They found that “90% of these diverse patients had at least one other significant form of psychopathology . . . [including] problems of mood and anxiety regulation and adapting in the world. Two of the 10 have had persistent significant regrets about their previous transitions.”
 
Yet in the name of “civil rights,” laws are being passed at all levels of government to prevent transgender patients from receiving therapies to diagnose and treat co-occurring mental disorders.
 
The authors of the Case Western Reserve University study seemed to see this legal wave coming when they said:
 
This finding seems to be in marked contrast to the public, forensic, and professional rhetoric of many who care for transgendered adults . . . Emphasis on civil rights is not a substitute for the recognition and treatment of associated psychopathology. Gender identity specialists, unlike the media, need to be concerned about the majority of patients, not just the ones who are apparently functioning well in transition.
 
As one who went through the surgery, I wholeheartedly agree. Politics doesn’t mix well with science. When politics forces itself on medicine, patients are the ones who suffer.
 
Let’s connect the dots. Transgender people report attempting suicide at a staggering rate—above 40%. According to Suicide.org, 90% of all suicides are the result of untreated mental disorders. Over 60% (and possibly up to 90% as shown at Case Western) of transgender people have comorbid psychiatric disorders, which often go wholly untreated.
 
Could treating the underlying psychiatric disorders prevent transgender suicides? I think the answer is a resounding “yes.”
 
The evidence is staring us in the face. Tragically high numbers of transgender people attempt suicide. Suicide is the result of untreated mental disorders. A majority of transgender people suffer from untreated comorbid disorders—yet against all reason, laws are being enacted to prevent their treatment.

 

If we are truly concerned about these people we would try and treat their minds first before we mutilate their bodies. It amazes me how those who are all science-y about everything will reject studies on the basis that they upset the progressive narrative. The whole thing is worth a read.

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#74 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 07:27 PM

Here's a good article published a couple days ago that lends a lot of credibility to the position that transgenderism is a mental disorder. The whole thing is a good read. Here's the heart of the article:

 

 

If we are truly concerned about these people we would try and treat their minds first before we mutilate their bodies. It amazes me how those who are all science-y about everything will reject studies on the basis that they upset the progressive narrative. The whole thing is worth a read.
I'd be curious if they controlled for social attitudes towards transexuality. That is, do those comorbid psychiatric phenomena, such as depression, correlate as strongly in San Francisco trans individuals as it does in Dallas transgendered?
I can't find any data on that, but that's an important factor to look for, because it could confound any claim of a causal direction. It's just as likely that being transgendered in our culture causes those mental disorders as a result of the way the culture around the individuals treats them, or those individuals' knowledge that they're more likely to be the victims of violence and especially sexual violence because they're trans.


#75 GhostWriter

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 07:39 PM

I'd be curious if they controlled for social attitudes towards transexuality. That is, do those comorbid psychiatric phenomena, such as depression, correlate as strongly in San Francisco trans individuals as it does in Dallas transgendered?
I can't find any data on that, but that's an important factor to look for, because it could confound any claim of a causal direction. It's just as likely that being transgendered in our culture causes those mental disorders as a result of the way the culture around the individuals treats them, or those individuals' knowledge that they're more likely to be the victims of violence and especially sexual violence because they're trans.

 

 I don't doubt that the uphill battle they face post-coming out helps contribute to their suicidal thoughts. But the existence of other psychologcial disorders would seem to point to that being a far greater causal agent. And as the article says elsewhere, it's astonishing that in this day and age we allow those with gender-dysmorphia (usually combined with other disorders) to self-diagnose their affliction, when we don't let any other group to do likewise.


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#76 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:05 PM

As I mentioned earlier, a "disorder" or "illness" or "addiction" is defined by its consequences, and those can change based on all sorts of things.

Remember, not all trans people have themselves physically operated on. It's okay to present as the other gender, use hormonal replacement therapy, etc.

If that mitigates the negative consequences of whatever abnormality causes them discomfort, it seems preferable to diagnosing them with a syndrome, and then trying to figure out how to "cure" it, since the early years of syndrome cures often are more harmful than helpful.
At the end of the day, you could be right, but as far as we know now, we're able to manage this stuff pretty well.



#77 fenderjazz

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:27 PM

I agree with the concept that anyone in this situation should get some help.  There could be chemical imbalance factors at play, etc, and perhaps transitioning would provide a placebo effect but there could be a root cause for the way they are feeling.  I think the approach should be for anyone who is that uncomfortable in their own skin to get some help and explore this.  Self medicating may not be best in this case, it may only mask another problem.  That's not to say that anyone who is TG is mentally ill, it's just that they shouldn't take this on alone.



#78 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 06:54 AM

Carmen+Carrera+NYFW+Front+Row+Blonds+5jd

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Those are two pictures of a woman named Carmen Roman, who was born Christopher Roman. 
She's a burlesque dancer and model who is currently gunning to be the first trans Victoria's Secret Angel.

This seemed like the place to share these.


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