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Transgenderism


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Poll: Transgenderism (14 member(s) have cast votes)

Is it really possible to transition from one gender to another?

  1. Yes (8 votes [57.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.14%

  2. No (6 votes [42.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.86%

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#1 Slim

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 07:21 PM

I've just listened to a current affairs piece on the radio, in which the topic of transgenderism was discussed. Two people were interviewed on the programme; the first of these was said to have "transitioned to female", while the other had "transitioned to male".

 

I'm a pretty socially liberal sort of chap, as perhaps one or two of you have noticed. I'm all in favour of equality of opportunity and respect for people in minority groups, transgender people included. I strongly disapprove of the sort of prejudice that transgender people experience. I recognise that it is a legitimate condition, not a lifestyle choice. I believe that these people should be allowed to go about their affairs in whatever clothing they desire.

 

But are we really expected to accept that it's possible to "transition" to a different sex? I genuinely sympathise with people who identify as members of the opposite sex. If you're a man who identifies as a woman, by all means wear a skirt and use the ladies' toilet, if your co-workers don't mind. Or if you're a woman who identifies as a man, feel free to come and use the gents. I don't think I'll find myself standing next to you at the urinals anyway.


But don't expect me to refer to a man or woman suffering from this condition as "she" or "he" respectively just because he or she might prefer it. I'm only too happy to extend support and sympathy. Pretending that terms like man, woman, female, male and so on have an optional definition is sheer politically correct inanity.

 

 


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#2 chemistry1973

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 07:37 PM

Agreed on all points.



#3 MrSkeptic

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:05 PM

Why stop with your last point? Is it because of physiology?


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#4 GhostWriter

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:10 PM

I believe it's a mental disorder. Evidence suggests that many self-correct over time; especially children. DNA doesn't lie.

 

And you may want to be careful how you address one of these individuals, in New York anyways. It might get expensive.


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#5 The Macallan

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 09:27 PM

The biological answer makes it pretty clear cut for me

 

This is a question that goes back couple thousand years I believe...

 

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#6 chemistry1973

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 10:04 PM

I believe it's a mental disorder. Evidence suggests that many self-correct over time; especially children. DNA doesn't lie.

And you may want to be careful how you address one of these individuals, in New York anyways. It might get expensive.


I agree to an extent. Can't be much of a disorder if you contribute to society and pay your taxes ... Perhaps it's a symptom more than a disease.

#7 Hemisfears

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 10:28 PM

It's still Bruce Jenner as far as I am concerned.

 

DNA is DNA.

 

 

But are we really expected to accept that it's possible to "transition" to a different sex?

If the DNA can be changed, then, yes.

 

Otherwise Bruce is still Bruce.


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#8 nickslikk2112

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 10:44 PM

If it pisses off the PC Brigade then NO!

 

But being as gender is a social imposition upon sex then yes.

 

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#9 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 11:22 PM

I guess I'mma be the lone dissenting voice with a simple question: what does it hurt?
If a person identifies as female or male, despite how they were born, what does it hurt you to use a different pronoun? If they present themselves well enough, you may not even know they're trans (I had a friend who was a trans-woman whose birth sex I didn't know until she told me some months after we met).

Surely we all have friends with embarrassing first names right? That's another example of an identity that they didn't choose and they don't feel comfortable with. Do you accommodate them by using their middle name? How is this any different?

And what about people born in-between. Hermaphrodites and otherwise? How should they identify?
We have this idea of gender and sex as binary values, but both of them are spectra. The former is socially-constructed, the latter biologically. But in both cases, there are instances outside of our accepted paradigm. As far as I'm concerned, that means we just have an opportunity to expand our paradigm.


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#10 Slim

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 12:43 AM

First question - what it hurts is language. Correctness. Truth. A woman is not a man who wishes he were a woman. It's a useful word that has arisen because it describes something (like "he", "she" etc). Whether I might know they aren't isn't quite the point. I mean - I could probably pass for a Belgian. You'd never know. Doesn't mean I am one, even if I really, really wanted to be one.

 

Hugh Laurie's first name is James, and his middle name is Hugh. Just like myself. But a name is not a definition. It doesn't describe someone. That's the important difference.



#11 grep

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 12:49 AM

Well can someone actually change gender? No.

 

Can someone take on traits of another gender? Yes.

 

Should we respect that? Yeah, why not. So long as no one is getting hurt, then live and let live.


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#12 RushDoggie

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 12:56 AM

We all start out the same in utero until about the seventh week when various hormone stuff programmed into our DNA is supposed to direct our "pre-genitals" into either male or female tracks.

 

Except supposed to doesn't always happen. DNA instructions are notoriously imperfect. There are also environmental factors that can affect this development, various pesticides, drugs and plastics can be strong endocrine disruptors. There are studies that show exposure to various steroids, hormones and certain stressors in lower animals have an effect on gender behavior in the offspring as adults.

 

So babies are born, some human defines them as male or female and that how they were raised, but that might not be their biology. In that case, male or female doesn't describe them appropriately. What do you call a hermaphrodite? Or someone without developed genitals at all? What is a women who has a normal vulva but has a clitoris that is pretty clearly a mini penis? Some people may indeed have a mental disorder that causes them to identify with a different gender despite their biology. But how could you ever tell?

 

Like aRRaaR I just can't see why anyone cares. If you want to be a different gender, do it.. Its really not my business or my problem unless I am interested in procreating with you. Pretty much every bathroom that is designed for more than one user has a stall, so if the idea of someone who may or may not be biologically what you think they should be, use a stall. Simple.


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#13 Three Eyes

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:57 AM

Seems like a minor issue.


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#14 Soddy

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:22 AM

If gender is defined as "the state of being male or female" and a person transitions from one state of being to the other, there you go.

 

I will address any person according to how they wish to be addressed. If a transwoman identifies under a feminine pronoun and the name Caitlyn, I'm not going to use he, him, or Bruce.

 

Trans have it rough as it is - they face discrimination from all sides. Transpeople face greater discrimination in general, are at greater suicide risk, and hate crime against trans is on rise, especially non-whites. There are also quite a few LGBT activists who would happily lop off the T if they could. 


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#15 Slim

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 10:05 AM

Well can someone actually change gender? No.

 

Can someone take on traits of another gender? Yes.

 

Should we respect that? Yeah, why not. So long as no one is getting hurt, then live and let live.

 

Yes, I agree. But I won't pretend that they actually have transformed into a person of a different sex, simply because they haven't.



#16 Moving Target

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 10:27 AM

I believe it's a mental disorder. Evidence suggests that many self-correct over time; especially children. DNA doesn't lie.

 

The NHS site says this is no longer considered a mental disorder.

 

DNA isn't everything.  There are foetal development factors.  All unborn babies are female for the first eight weeks, at which point the X-chromosome in boys begins to express itself with a surge of testosterone.  But sometimes this does not work. Therefore, genetically a person can be male, but their brain develops with a different gender identity.  

 

Sometimes there are hermaphrodites too.  Such a person decides which gender they feel comfortable in, and can have operations to remove the primary and secondary characteristics redundant to their brain gender.


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#17 Moving Target

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 10:31 AM

First question - what it hurts is language. Correctness. Truth. A woman is not a man who wishes he were a woman. It's a useful word that has arisen because it describes something (like "he", "she" etc). Whether I might know they aren't isn't quite the point. I mean - I could probably pass for a Belgian. You'd never know. Doesn't mean I am one, even if I really, really wanted to be one.

 

Hugh Laurie's first name is James, and his middle name is Hugh. Just like myself. But a name is not a definition. It doesn't describe someone. That's the important difference.

 

 

Language isn't the same thing as reality.  Trouble is that some people think it is, because of the way it programmes their thoughts.  I usually say that you can drink a glass of water, but you can't drink the words "a glass of water".

 

BTW when I'm in Spain, everyone seems to think I am German, because I am tall with blue eyes. 



#18 The Enemy Within

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 10:37 AM

I can’t say I can fully understand how it is to feel that you have been born into the body of the wrong gender, but the decision of someone to change ones sex is really not an issue to me.

 

I have a good friend and colleague who transitioned from male to female before we were acquainted, I accept her for who she is without question and those who don’t know her history are none the wiser. Quite possibly what is more worrying is the amount of work related sexism she has encountered post op.

 

Gender fluidity seems to becoming much more common place and accepted amongst younger people, with a fair number of artists and musicians now happy to describe themselves in this way.



#19 Always the Winner

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 10:53 AM

Girls will be boys and boys will be girls it's a mixed up mungled up shook up world.....
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#20 Hemisfears

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 11:46 AM

Surely we all have friends with embarrassing first names right? That's another example of an identity that they didn't choose and they don't feel comfortable with. Do you accommodate them by using their middle name? How is this any different?

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