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Why I left Greenpeace


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#1 SJS

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 03:03 AM


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#2 SJS

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 03:04 AM


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#3 Slim

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 05:04 PM

That's an interesting YouTube channel; I do find that this one rather diminishes its credibility, however:

 



#4 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 05:44 PM

Surprise, an organization is corrupt.

I've said this many times: corruption and lost message and ignorance of founding principles come with the territory when you createa  large group that has a hierarchy.

That's a constant over organizations from government to business, left to right, religious to anti-religious.



#5 SJS

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:36 PM

That's an interesting YouTube channel; I do find that this one rather diminishes its credibility, however:

 

 

Yes.  I'm sure you'll find a lot of stuff there that you agree with and a lot of stuff there that you won't.  I have been a fan of Dr. Moore's advocacy for a long time - his efforts to see Golden Rice through to acceptance have been particularly earnest - and I was surprised to see he had done these videos for Prager U.  That website invites people to do videos on their area of expertise, and while the organizers of Prager U. undoubtedly endorse all of the videos on that channel, the individual presenters (like Dr. Moore) are "free agents" who have nothing to do with the videos they themselves did not author.  So hopefully peeps here can appreciate (or not) any particular mini-lecture without any guilt-by-association concerns.


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#6 Chris Christie

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:39 PM

Greenpeace is nothing more than a group of hippies masking as environmental radicals. The green isn't about trees, you can see that from the chickenfoot in their banners. They are a bunch of draft dodging, bra burning, pot smoking hippes, running around supporting themselves through the donations of other weak minded pot smoking hippies.

 

Where do these people get their money from? Is it welfare? Is it medicaid? How are these potheads funded? Well, I'm going to cut it all. Social programs, say bye bye free ride. Bye bye.

 

In February 2017, I will enact envrionmental reform that make it harder for groups like Greenpeace to operate. In addition i will deregulate emissions controls. Coal plants and nuclear will be back on the table.  

 

Offshore drilling as well. Drill baby drill.



#7 Three Eyes

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:50 PM

That's an interesting YouTube channel; I do find that this one rather diminishes its credibility, however:

 

Most of the videos I've seen from Prager "University" serve a right wing agenda. That's not to say some of the presentations have no value. The following one, however, is laughable:

 

 


Hey there goes Alex. He's loaded with money. Wow he's really set himself up great.


#8 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 08:03 PM

Yes.  I'm sure you'll find a lot of stuff there that you agree with and a lot of stuff there that you won't.  I have been a fan of Dr. Moore's advocacy for a long time - his efforts to see Golden Rice through to acceptance have been particularly earnest - and I was surprised to see he had done these videos for Prager U.  That website invites people to do videos on their area of expertise, and while the organizers of Prager U. undoubtedly endorse all of the videos on that channel, the individual presenters (like Dr. Moore) are "free agents" who have nothing to do with the videos they themselves did not author.  So hopefully peeps here can appreciate (or not) any particular mini-lecture without any guilt-by-association concerns.

I think the issue is one of editorial integrity.
If they let anybody post a video as long as it fits their agenda, no matter how facile its reasoning or simplistic its analysis, the vibe I get is that they'll let it on there.

I felt downright patronized to and insulted by their video on the Progressive Tax, for instance. If you're trying to explain your viewpoint on something as complex as the taxation of a nation of hundreds of millions, don't try to simplify it to the point of a five-year-old's first book being read to me by the most gentle of school-marms. Especially when I can poke holes in the argument from about 20 seconds in, and you're still presenting the whole thing as undisputed truth.

Prager didn't publish Moore because they give a crap about the direction of environmentalism. They did so because they figured that it would look like a hit-piece against Greenpeace, to be used as ammunition by their ideological faithful.


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#9 SJS

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 09:40 PM

Prager didn't publish Moore because they give a crap about the direction of environmentalism. They did so because they figured that it would look like a hit-piece against Greenpeace, to be used as ammunition by their ideological faithful.

 

The reason SJS published these 2 videos in Science Like Nature is because I care very much about the promise of transgenic technology to improve the environment and the human condition.  I'm sad that this thread is turning toward a referendum on all things Prager U.; if so, the mods should probably move it to Territorial Games.


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#10 Slim

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 09:50 PM

Most of the videos I've seen from Prager "University" serve a right wing agenda. That's not to say some of the presentations have no value. The following one, however, is laughable:

 

Yes, what a closed-minded little man.



#11 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:24 PM

The reason SJS published these 2 videos in Science Like Nature is because I care very much about the promise of transgenic technology to improve the environment and the human condition.  I'm sad that this thread is turning toward a referendum on all things Prager U.; if so, the mods should probably move it to Territorial Games.

My point was more that I can understand Slim's perspective.

There's little commentary required on the two things you posted, because they're pretty straightforward. Greenpeace is a self-serving entity without a view towards the actual consequences of their actions beyond their own limited sphere, and the science is overwhelmingly supportive of the benefits of GM crops. Anyone who disagrees with these two videos is living in a fantasy land that makes them so deluded that they not really worth engaging with.

They're not necessarily fodder for interesting conversation. Which, I imagine, is why the discussion went to Prager's stupidity.



#12 SJS

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:20 AM

There's little commentary required on the two things you posted, because they're pretty straightforward. Greenpeace is a self-serving entity without a view towards the actual consequences of their actions beyond their own limited sphere, and the science is overwhelmingly supportive of the benefits of GM crops. Anyone who disagrees with these two videos is living in a fantasy land that makes them so deluded that they not really worth engaging with.

 

I wish that were so.  I wish the world recognized the vacuousness of Greenpeace and embraced the promise of GM crops.  The reality is that Greenpeace maintains a good reputation among the majority of people, and GM crops are embraced by a small minority.  Only a small minority are reflexively opposed to GM crops, but there is, in the vast middle, a lack of interest or understanding of the arguments involved.  The merits of the Prager U. videos is that they are brief, visually appealing, and present the highlights of a point of view.  They have the potential to engage this large, undecided middle.

 

Dennis Prager is hardly stupid.  Personally I think it makes you look petty - and a little too comfortable with your own perceived intelligence - to say so. I do not find all of his arguments persuasive, but I find many of them challenging.


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#13 SJS

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:29 AM

Most of the videos I've seen from Prager "University" serve a right wing agenda. That's not to say some of the presentations have no value. The following one, however, is laughable:

 

 

 

You should start a thread on this in an appropriate forum, it would make for an interesting discussion.  I for one am very curious to know more about your and Slim's reaction to this opinion.


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#14 MrSkeptic

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 03:46 AM

Here's a Greenpeace event in the Portland area. They're protesting an ice breaking ship because it will be used in the Arctic so Shell Oil can do some exploratory drilling. The ship also carries a huge device that is used to cap a well if there is a malfunction but the protesters don't seem to care about that. I wonder how many of them drove petroleum powered vehicles to this event? 

 

There are also "kayaktavists" in the water paddling around on kayaks made of plastic which comes from, wait for it, PETROLEUM!

 

Fucking morons.

 

PORTLAND, OR (KPTV) -

Thirteen protesters from the environmental activism group Greenpeace rappelled over the side of the St. Johns Bridge Wednesday morning in an attempt to prevent a ship from leaving the area on its way to the arctic for an oil drilling operation.

 

The protesters, joined by 13 others who were serving as anchors on the deck of the bridge, suspended themselves over the Willamette River just before 3 a.m.

PHOTOS: Protesters dangle over side of St. Johns Bridge

The protest is an attempt to prevent the MSV Fennica, a Shell Oil icebreaking vessel, from leaving a facility at Swan Island where it has been undergoing repairs.

Greenpeace said the ship must be at the drilling site before Shell can reapply for federal approval to drill, so they planned to do their best to prevent that from happening.

"We've been planning this for about two weeks, since Shell's icebreaking vessel ran into something up in the arctic, got a 39-inch hole in its hull and had to race down here to Portland to be repaired," said Annie Leonard, executive director of Greenpeace USA.

 

"The window for drilling is closing, because there's only a certain number of weeks that there's no ice there, so Shell is really under time pressure to get that boat up there and we're doing everything we can to delay that," Leonard said.

The U.S. Coast Guard said commercial waterway traffic was not being affected by the protesters. The activists rigged their ropes so that they could raise and lower themselves as necessary to allow ships free passage.

The Fennica was scheduled to leave dock at 10 a.m. Wednesday, but the ultimate decision on when the ship leaves will come from Shell.

A Shell spokesman told FOX 12 the ship will leave "once we've completed final preparations." However, it was not clear if that would happen Wednesday. 

 

The Coast Guard said when the ship does leave dry dock, the Coast Guard will escort the Fennica down the Willamette River with a safety zone of 500 yards in front of the ship and 100 yards on either side.

Greenpeace said the activists plan to stay hanging from the bridge for as long as it takes, and they have enough supplies to last them several days.

The activists also kept their digital devices handy so they could share their exploits on the Internet.

 

Greenpeace said the rappellers have come from all over the country for the protest. They're joined by local activists in kayaks who plan to block the ship's passage in the water.

The protest was not affecting vehicle traffic on the bridge, but the sidewalks were blocked.

Portland police were on scene monitoring the situation, but officers told FOX 12 they didn't have any immediate plans to put an end to the protest. It wasn't clear if any of the protesters could eventually be arrested or face charges.


They said I could be anything, so I became a disappointment.

 

 


#15 A Rebel and a Runner

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 04:08 AM

Dennis Prager is hardly stupid.  Personally I think it makes you look petty - and a little too comfortable with your own perceived intelligence - to say so. I do not find all of his arguments persuasive, but I find many of them challenging.

We're talking about the man who essentially claims that there's no such thing as marital rape.

Sorry, but Prager is a either a cynically manipulative liar, or psychotic.



#16 MrSkeptic

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 04:52 AM

He can claim that all he wants but I'm pretty sure the courts disagree with him.


They said I could be anything, so I became a disappointment.

 

 


#17 RushDoggie

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 05:25 AM

We're talking about the man who essentially claims that there's no such thing as marital rape.

Sorry, but Prager is a either a cynically manipulative liar, or psychotic.

 

I keep seeing these men talking about how women don't like to have sex. I have to wonder if they are really bad in bed or something. If your wife doesn't want to have sex with you, maybe there is a reason?


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#18 Moving Target

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 11:52 AM

The reason SJS published these 2 videos in Science Like Nature is because I care very much about the promise of transgenic technology to improve the environment and the human condition.  I'm sad that this thread is turning toward a referendum on all things Prager U.; if so, the mods should probably move it to Territorial Games.

 

I get your OP point SJS and find it enlightening.  Thanks for posting it.  I was a supporter of Greenpeace for a long time but did not know that the antiscience zealots have taken over.



#19 AsIfToFly

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 02:50 PM

Here's a Greenpeace event in the Portland area. They're protesting an ice breaking ship because it will be used in the Arctic so Shell Oil can do some exploratory drilling. The ship also carries a huge device that is used to cap a well if there is a malfunction but the protesters don't seem to care about that. I wonder how many of them drove petroleum powered vehicles to this event? 

 

There are also "kayaktavists" in the water paddling around on kayaks made of plastic which comes from, wait for it, PETROLEUM!

 

The point, to my understanding, is that Shell can't drill at all until the ship is there, so I'm not sure what you mean about them "not caring."  If there is no well, there is no risk of it needing to be capped.

 

And the fact that they use petroleum products does not conflict with their position.  They are protesting exploratory drilling in the Arctic, not petroleum in general.  People who protest the logging of old growth forests are not hypocrites simply because because they use paper or live in a house made of wood.  

 

It's pretty hard to avoid petroleum products in today's society.  I think you can still us them yet be in favor or responsible practices that have minimal environmental impact as well as support investment in alternative energy sources.

 

Looks like they were successful in turning the ship around.  It came up the river, stopped, and then went back.  Whether or not you agree with them, you have to admire these people's dedication.


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#20 SJS

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 06:20 PM

We're talking about the man who essentially claims that there's no such thing as marital rape.

Sorry, but Prager is a either a cynically manipulative liar, or psychotic.

 

Come on, Reb, I know you to be better than this.  That's a completely misleading description of Prager's point in this column. 

 

I enjoy sex.  I enjoy sex with my wife.  However, there have been occasional times when she has expressed interest and I am, for whatever reason, not feeling up to it.  I'm busy.  I'm tired.  I'm not feeling well.  Sometimes I tell her so.  Other times, I give it a go, because I don't want to shut her down, because I want to reciprocate her affection, and because I have the notion that probably I'll get into it if I just start.

 

She's not raping me in that case.  What's going on is I'm making a decision to show kindness and affection to my life partner in a situation where I might easily have made the decision to put it off until tomorrow.

 

Prager does phrase this as something women should consider for men, rather than present it in a gender-neutral case, but only because he recognizes the reality that men initiate sex more often than women do.  He is certainly not saying do it always.  He is certainly not saying you are obligated to lie there and take it because your a wife and that's your job.

 

To read it that way and to describe it as marital rape, as if that's what its about, is either you showing your antipathy to the author (the genetic fallacy) or some kind of inexperience with the realities of long-term relationships.  I hope its the latter, because that's understandable.  The former is just biased nonsense, something I find that you engage in only rarely.

 

EDIT to add Prager's own words:

 

That solution is for a wife who loves her husband -- if she doesn’t love him, mood is not the problem -- to be guided by her mind, not her mood, in deciding whether to deny her husband sex.  [Note he is saying it is fine to decide to deny your husband sex.  He is only suggesting to consider more than just your gut reaction, more than just letting your current mood dominate your thinking, which is, after all, excellent advice for any decision making.]

 

If her husband is a decent man -- if he is not, nothing written here applies -- a woman will be rewarded many times over outside the bedroom (and if her man is smart, inside the bedroom as well) with a happy, open, grateful, loving, and faithful husband. That is a prospect that should get any rational woman into the mood more often.  [Note he is saying that the assumption is we have decent people in a good marriage.  If not NOTHING WRITTEN HERE APPLIES.  We are not talking about marital rape for goodness sake.]


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